Illegal aliens, crime and gang violence: Could there possibly be a connection

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This somewhat ludicrous question has arisen as a result of discussions here and at the Loudoun Democrats blog, so I will suppress the urge to simply say "Pshaw!" and attempt to provide an answer.

At the Loudoun Democrats blog Frequent NVTH commenter Jonathan takes Supervisor Eugene Delgaudio to task for comments he made the other night at the Help Save Loudoun meeting:

...Delgaudio also asked if the police can put together a federal RICO case. The officers explained that a federal case is a great deal of work and that the local gangs mark territory and fight among themselves, but are not involved in meth production or other major crimes. No matter for Eugene:

"Frank Wolf got us $2.5M for a Federal Gang Task Force and is looking for $2.5M more"

No Tax Delgaudio seems ready and willing to spend, spend, spend for any program that increases the ability of authorities to profile, spy illegally, and generally restrict freedom. Watch out, Delgaudio is soon to present a study of a Herndon police effort to deport jailed immigrants...

...Supervisor Delgaudio's RICO suggestion would give these at risk youth long jail sentences simply for knowing the wrong person. Like the NY Rockefeller drug laws, RICO would ruin lives, burden taxpayers, and fail miserably at solving the root cause of the problem. These kids need education and "a little bit of lovin" according to the Peaceaholics rep, not curfews, crackdowns and jail time.

First: "A little bit of lovin" is without doubt a unique proposal for dealing with MS-13, but if we can't count on such suggestions from the Democrats, then what do we have Democrats for? Second: Supervisor Delgaudio was likely not thinking of schoolchildren when he asked about whether gang activity falls under RICO. The overarching theme from the Democratic bloggers is: Gangs are more a matter of teenage identity crisis than community violence.

This is a noble assumption but, I would boldly suggest, a tad naive.

Here, local gadfly Zimzo chortles at the very notion that illegal aliens have anything to do with increased crime:

...according to "On Immigration and Crime," a study in 2001 done for the U.S. Department of Justice. The report said that most studies in the past century show that immigrants commit fewer crimes than the rest of the population."

Zimzo's source for this slam-dunk fact is a single news item referencing a 2001 study.

By way of background, let me note that if it were ever proven that illegal aliens do cause an increase in violent crime in the U.S., Zimzo would counter with data on the number of civilian casualties in Iraq.

I'll start by recommending everyone read T.J. Bonner's report which includes information about tactics employed to outwit the Border Patrol and move criminals into the U.S.

Next, let's look at some information slightly less than five years old and more diverse than a single statistical study: news items from the past month. (Empasis added throughout).

Deporting Illegal Immigrants

It happens every night. Federal flights called J-Pats loaded with illegal immigrants going thru deportation, more than 200 thousand of them in a year. Close to half with criminal histories. Known felons. Gang members...

...Immigration and customs enforcement or ICE has a year old campaign it calls community shield. They've arrested 33-hundred gang members. Nearly half of them with violent criminal histories, eleven hundred from the gang MS-13...

...MS13 has been called the most violent gang in the country. It has a lot of competition. Ice says illegal immigrants are a significant factor with gangs and gang violence...

Virginia: Anti-gang efforts enhanced

...Several officials spoke about the rise of violent gangs in a region where such a trend would have been unthinkable just 15 years ago.

But immigration has changed the region's demographic make-up -- particularly laborers from Central America drawn to jobs in the region's agribusiness. With them has followed what officials describe as a small but significant minority of violent gang members who prey on immigrants and others in the community.

The trend threatens the dream of pastoral tranquility with which the Shenandoah Valley is associated, Brownlee said.

"Gangs and the violence that they bring to a community, in my opinion, are a direct assault on that dream," he said.

A region in which homicides are rare has seen three gang-related killings since 2001.

U.S. Rep. Robert W. Goodlatte, R-6th, said the FBI has identified six gangs in the valley. The largest is MS-13, or Mara Salvatrucha, which officials estimate has about 1,500 members in Northern and northwestern Virginia, and which is determined to increase its numbers, Goodlatte said...

Maryland: Candidates address crime in Langley Park

...Langley Park has been a hotbed for crime. Car thefts, burglaries and murder — the latter believed to be perpetrated by MS-13 gang members — have resulted in a greater police presence in the area...

...Davis said Langley Park has a strong gang presence, and the recent crackdown on roadside truck vending has helped curb gang activity.

Some vendors were known to be lookouts for MS-13 gang members, Davis said...

(Roadside vending trucks comprise a significant portion of local zoning violations involving illegal residents.)

Tennessee: Members Of Violent Latino Gang Thought To Be Connected With Recent Murder

...Known to use machetes for murders and dismembering body parts, MS-13 is in the illegal drug, gun and human slave trade. Members who smuggle illegal immigrants across the U.S. border are known as "Coyotes," according to Lt. Simpson.

Reports show members are mostly illegals from El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico and operate in a business-like fashion much like the traditional mafia....

...As for the three Hispanic suspects, 19-year-old Edwin Daniel Almenderez-Ulloa and 25-year-old Cesar O'Hara Ortiz are being held under federal warrants by U.S. Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Johnson said they are illegal immigrants and will be held until a grand jury meets in September to consider felony charges related to the killing.

California: Leader of notorious MS-13 gang arrested

...Since Bonilla came to the East Bay from San Francisco six months ago, MS-13 members have been linked to three homicides and several other shootings as it sought to carve out territory and intimidate other gangs, authorities said this morning...

...Bonilla, who police referred to as a "shot caller" because of his alleged high status, has a record of previous arrests on assault with a deadly weapon and firearms charges. He was arrested this morning for immigration violations and could face additional criminal charges stemming from his alleged gang activities....

...The raid was the culmination of a six-month operation and included members of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Richmond Police Department.

MS-13, also known as Mara Salvatrucha, is a predominantly Salvadoran gang that has long been active in Central America and Los Angeles, authorities said. In recent years it has spread to several other major U.S. cities.

Many gang members are former members of the Salvadoran military and have gained a reputation for extreme violence, including machete attacks on its enemies...

New Jersey: Out for Bloods: Police arrest 41 alleged gang members

..."We have a variety of gangs in Passaic County," Avigliano said. "In Paterson we have the Bloods, the Market Street Dominicans and a couple of other smaller gangs. In Passaic, we have MS-13 and in Clifton you also have some gangs.

"If you go up-county to Bloomingdale and to Pompton Lakes you have the MS-13 problem where you have a tremendous number of Mexican workers"...

Virginia: Crime Generates Shock, Alarm and Resignation

...A COVENTRY SQUARE SAID someone painted MS-13 on the tree in front of the targeted house in the spring. Loudoun County has Mara Salvatrucha or MS-13, 18th Street, South Side Locos and other gangs...

Ohio: Latin Gangs Moving Into Tri-State

Investigators in two counties say they are looking for four Latino men they know only by the street names Tigre, Chango, Negro and Pinkey. The four are wanted in connection with a violent workplace assault that happened on a Hamilton Township construction site July 14th. In this developing story, Local 12's Rich Jaffe says the attack still has people on the job site living in fear...

Gary Crouch, Hamilton Police: "We're identifying more and more gang members with national ties, bigger larger organizations in the Hispanic community...very well organized, victims don't like to come forward...."

Police say with our growing Latino population, the Latin gangs will grow as well...

Texas: BP: Many immigrants claiming to be Salvadoran lying

...After more than 15 years with the Border Patrol, Cervantes has learned to be skeptical when undocumented immigrants claim to be Salvadoran.

Many of them, he said, are lying.

Because of the 1982 Orantes injunction, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has to treat Salvadorans differently from other undocumented immigrants. While the vast majority of detained immigrants are subject to expedited removal, or removal without a judicial hearing, Salvadorans are released on their own recognizance and given a notice to appear in federal court.

...Border Patrol agents are concerned that among the Salvadoran immigrants who enter the country via the Valley are members of MS-13, a Salvadoran gang known for drug smuggling and gun running along the border.

"We consider them an emerging threat to our communities,” Cervantes said. “A part of our national Border Patrol strategy calls for responding to emerging threats like MS-13"...

Finally, for a large number of additional news sources, review the voluminous footnotes at the bottom of this article.

The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants in the United States

...Offenders were located in 36 states, but it is clear, that the most of the offenders were located in states with the highest numbers of illegal immigrants. California was number one, followed by Texas, Arizona, New Jersey, New York, and Florida.

Based on population numbers of 12,000,000 illegal immigrants and the fact that young males make up more of this population than the general U.S. population, sex offenders in the illegal immigrant group make up a higher percentage. When examining ICE reports and public records, it is consistent to find sex offenders comprising 2% of illegals apprehended. Based on this 2% figure, which is conservative, there are approximately 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States.

This translates to 93 sex offenders and 12 serial sexual offenders coming across U.S. borders illegally per day. The 1500 offenders in this study had a total of 5,999 victims. Each sex offender averaged 4 victims. This places the estimate for victimization numbers around 960,000 for the 88 months examined in this study...

Of the 1500 cases reviewed, 525 (35%) were child molestations, 358 (24%) were rapes, and 617 (41%) were sexual homicides and serial murders. Of the child molestations, 47% of the victims were Hispanic, 36% were Caucasian, 8% were Asian, 6% were African American, and 3% were other nationalities. In most instances, the offenders were familiar with their victims. In fact, 82% of the victims were known to their attackers. The other 18% were molested by strangers. In those instances, the illegal immigrants typically gained access to the victims after having worked as a day laborer at or near the victims’ homes. Victims ranged in age from 1 year old to 13 years old, with the average age being 6.

In rape cases, the offenders were less likely to know their victims. Only 64% of the victims knew their attackers. Furthermore, rape victims proved to be more diverse than child molestation victims. Hispanic and Caucasian victims were identical at 35% each.

The next most likely victims were African American women, and other nationalities comprised the remainder. These women suffered brutal attacks. Commonly, a weapon was used to control the victims. These weapons were most often sharp instruments. And the victims were beaten during the rapes over 70% of the time. Offenders engaged in sodomy in 67% of the attacks, and gang rape took place in .007% of the cases. Rape victims ranged in age from 16-79 and averaged age 23.

Serial rapists accounted for 3% of all illegal immigrant rapists. Each serial rapist averaged 5 victims, with the number of victims ranging from 2 to 11. Two serial rapists were confirmed HIV positive, and another offender had a venereal disease.

The murders were the worst of the sex crimes and were especially vicious. The most common method was for an offender to break into a residence and ambush his victims. Not only were victims raped, but some (6%) were mutilated. The crime scenes were very bloody, expressing intense, angry perpetrator personalities. Specifically, most victims were blitzed, rendered incapable of fighting back, and then raped and murdered. The most common method of killing was bludgeoning, followed by stabbing. Caucasians were more likely to become victims of sexual homicide committed by illegal immigrants. Hispanics were second, and African Americans were third...

In sum, I'm not sure whether there is yet any scientifically incontrovertible proof of a connection between illegal aliens and violent crime, but the overwhelming evidence suggests you have to be wearing rose-colored glasses to say there is not.

UPDATE: Just this hour, more hysteria for my pal Zimzo.

Immigration enforcement officers arrest 326 in Houston

Authorities have arrested 326 people in the Houston area, including some accused of murder, as part of a national crackdown on illegal immigrants.

They were accused of crimes including homicide, aggravated sexual assault of minors, robbery, assault, human smuggling and narcotics trafficking.

"Criminal aliens are a threat to the safety of our children, families, community and our nation,'' said Kenneth L. Landgrebe, field office director for Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Detention and Removal Operations office in Houston. "Our goal is to remove these threats from the United States.''

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zimzo said:

Illegal aliens and erectile dysfunction: Could there possibly be a connection?

I'm sorry Joe, but hysterical newspaper headlines and politicians fulminating don't really count as evidence. If you have any actual statistics or studies conducted after 2001 I'd love to see them. One of the points made by the study is that the claim that illegal immigrants are responsible for a rise in crime has been brought out by anti-mmigrant activists time and again in the past and has not been true. If you wish to contend that it suddenly, for the first time in history is true, then the burden of actual proof is on you.

You did cite one study, attempting to link illegal immigrants to sex crimes, at the end of your document dump. Unfortunately, it's one of the silliest "studies" I've ever seen. Deborah Schurman-Kauflin estimates (how? she doesn't say) that of illegal immigrants who are arrested 2% are sex offenders and from that she makes the leap to claiming 2% of ALL illegal immigrants are sex offenders. Using her methodology that would mean there are 6 million sex criminals loose in the U.S. abusing and a-raping and a-pillaging. That's really scary.

And, by the way, Joe, many of these accounts of evil Hispanics don't and can't differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants. But then considering the anti-Hispanic tenor of much of the rhetoric of people who claim they are really only concerned with illegal immigration I guess that doesn't matter much to you.

zimzo said:

And here's a lovely portrait of the kind of moderate, non-extremist people on your side you keep telling me about. Maybe it's different in Virginia:

Lots of crimes being committed by illegal aliens, though, that would not be occurring if the illegal aliens weren't here.

When community safety is at stake, I'd say the burden of proof shifts to you. See the update.

Jonathan said:

First: "A little bit of lovin" is without doubt a unique proposal for dealing with MS-13, but if we can't count on such suggestions from the Democrats"

Wow! Two factual errors in one sentence, Joe are you competing with Sophrosyne?

1. A little bit of lovin is the first, best, cheapest and most Christian approach. If that doesn't work, for example if the youth has a personality disorder, intervention is required. Community policing is next, followed by local and state law enforcement. Making this a Federal case is the last resort, not the first as supervisor Delgaudio would have it.

2. As stated on our blog, the views are those of the author, not the "Democrats".

Jonathan said:

Technical note - Please right click on the "permalink" hyperlink from blog and choose "copy link location", paste that link in your post and the link will point back to the correct post.


1. Of course I understand what you are saying applies to the middle-school gang phenomenon, and kids require different treatment than adults, but my point is you seemed to be missing the more important, organized-crime aspect. Thus this post.

2. I did not say "all Democrats everywhere in the world," now did I? The writers are Democrats and it's the name of the blog, so I think I'm within my rights to say "Democrats."

But I will grant that, upon further reflection, you probably realize there is a larger criminal problem than the unloved kids at the playgound.

Of course there is, Joe. The "little bit of lovin'" quote you seem to like so much comes from a spokesman for a non-profit working with youth in DC. He was speaking specifically about girl gangs and how many of these girls have been abused in their homes.

There's obviously a difference between the adult predators who take advantage of the fact that these youth are not getting what they need, and the youth themselves. I'm not seeing that distinction in any of the material you are presenting. Using fear of gangs and immigration to whip up a voter base might be good partisan politicking, but it's not going to solve the problems that I hope we all agree exist.

The blog entry that you have spent so much effort responding to was tightly focused on one aspect of your meeting - the fact that Mr. Delgaudio was, as usual, grandstanding on a divisive social issue. Don't try to make more of it than it is.

You haven't had anything to say about the presenters from GRIT. Their assessment of the situation in Loudoun doesn't really square with the picture you paint in your post. Any comment on that? They are the ones with boots on the ground, after all.

Jacob Ash said:

You amaze me. I point out that the underground economy (black market) associated with the illegal immigration on so massive a scale fosters corruption and you go and stuff words into my mouth. Nice try. No dice. I never said that illegal immigration is the cause for all the corruption in our country, but, it is certainly one factor among many. A very visible factor that has other problems associated with it. Good hyperbole though. Glad you got a laugh I like to keep folks happy.

BTW, I see you did not bother to answer any of my questions either. I guess you don't have any answers. At least you did stop with the 'extremist' labeling. Good for you.


Jacob Ash said:

One more thing, you dismiss a whole passel of articles as ‘hyterical’. OK, what is hysterical about them? Argument by supposition is the weakest form of discourse. This appears to be your modus operandi. Recall, you labeled Moderate 5-19 and Jack as extremists. I ask you why are they extreme? You do not appear to know judging from you answers.

You now move on to labeling all those articles with this bon mot ‘I'm sorry Joe, but hysterical newspaper headlines and politicians fulminating don't really count as evidence.’ Hilarious, I recall your use of articles, should we dismiss them as blithely as you do? I remember taking the time to answer an article you used point by point, much to your displeasure.


zimzo said:

Considering you never aswered my question about why "traditional" mores were better than modern mores I guess we're even. I'm not sure what questions you're referring to so perhaps you can refresh my memory.

As far as your "culture of corruption" argument, which I know you are very proud of, there is a very simple solution. Make the illegal immigrants who are already here legal. That would end the corruption there. The reason Prohibition was repealed was because a very stupid, futile law was causing otherwise law-abiding people to violate the law, corrupting our society.

As far as the "hysterical" articles goes, when you claim that illegal immigrants are behind a rise in crime, without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then you compile a bunch of articles, mostly about one gang, implying that there is some sort of illegal immigrant crime wave, even as you admit there is no proof of a correlation between illegal immigrants and crime, then I would have to say it sounds like hysteria to me. Next summer I expect to see a compilation of shark attack articles and accompanied by dire warnings that the shark community has declared war on America.

Jack said:


I have already pointed out that Hispanic crime rate is 3 times the White crime rate. More Hispanics means more crime. Also, since the illegal immigrants take jobs from poor Blacks, and poverty is said to be a "root cause" of crime, the illegal immigrants could be expected to cause more crime in the Black community, too.

Now, as to why we do not make illegal immigrants legal is that it would be rewarding the people who jumped ahead of those people trying to come in legally, and it would encourage yet more illegal immigration in hopes of yet another amnesty. That was the case last time, why do you think it will be any different this time.

Now, I propose that we set up an eBay-style auction site where someone on the waiting list can auction off his place on the list to an illegal. Then some of the people harmed would benefit from the legalization.

Now, I ask AGAIN: Do you propose that we not deport ANY illegal aliens?

I will ask more questions:

Do you have any solution to the problem of people's overstaying their Visas?

How many people should we allow in? Everyone? If not everyone, how do we stop after we have reached the quota?

As for Prohibition, it was the result of giving women the vote. The next thing they did was change their minds! :-)

kevin said:

Hey, would somebody come up here to Bmore and bother with a real crime problem? Seriously, last year we were 2nd to Detroit for most violent crime in the country and there are people here who are pretty upset about it. Not a lot of news about illegal immigrants but a s-ton of news about how people are killing each other nearly every day up here. Would anybody mind solving the problem here, which, though DC has declared a state of emergency, eclipses a lot of everyone elses crime problems? Thanks. We need help up here. We don't even have time to think about what the illegals are doing. Yeah, it's that bad. Maybe we can solve some of our own homegrown problems. . .it'd be much appreciated.

Jack said:


I just checked your assertion that the crime rate has increase during the Bush administration. The FBI Uniform Crime Reports ( show that the violent crime rate has decreased every year from 2000 to 2004. Property crime only increased in 2001, and has been down every other year.

The 2005 results are preliminary, but show an increase of 2.5% in violent crime, and a 1.6% decrease in property crime. Violent crime increase more in metropolitan areas.

Where did you get YOUR numbers that say the crime rate has been increasing under the Bush administration?

Jack said:


Solve your crime problem? No problem. Allow concealed carry. (Free training and subsidized handguns wouldn't be a bad idea either.)

Jack said:

Sorry for the double post. I responded to Kevin right after Zimzo, and it told me I had to wait a while because of some feature to prevent mailcious postings.

So I hit the BACK button, then re-posted, and both appeared.

zimzo said:

Jack writes: "I have already pointed out that Hispanic crime rate is 3 times the White crime rate. More Hispanics means more crime." Your logic defies logic, Jack. You could do that with any group. I bet the crime rate for Christians is a lot larger than the crime rate for Jews, so why don't we limit immigration for Christians?

As I said before, I think we should give illegal immigrants who are here amnesty and deport those who are guilty of crimes after due process. I think quotas should be based on reality.

On the crime rate:
"A 2005 Federal Bureau of Investigation crime report, issued last month, showed violent crime increasing for the first time in four years in 2005, up 2.5 percent from the year before, with medium-size cities and the Midwest leading the way....'The Bush administration has scaled back funding for federal cops program,' said Jens Ludwig, a criminal justice expert at Georgetown University. 'From 1993 to 2000 we saw an impressive run-up in the number of law enforcement people patrolling against crime. That has really slowed down.'"

From the same article as far as Jack's solution to give everyone guns:

""It isn't gang or drug violence, it's just people getting violent," said Mark Williams, an assistant district attorney in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. "A lot of them are minor disagreements and people using guns to settle them."

From the expiration of a federal ban on assault rifles to tougher restrictions on databases that identify gun owners, gun laws have weakened in the past five years, said Daniel Vice, an attorney with the Brady Center to Prevent Handgun Violence.

"The top five states with the highest gun death rates are five states with incredibly weak gun laws," he said, listing Louisiana, Alabama, Alaska, New Mexico and Wyoming."

kevin said:

I didn't find it malicious at all, Jack. Not sure I agree but I was impressed when VA did it. Seriously though, crime up here is huge as are drugs (i'm sure you heard). Maybe legalizing drugs would help too? That's sarcasm.

kevin said:

but not maliciously so

Loudoun Conservative said:

simple principle of capitalism: behavior that is rewarded will be repeated. amnesty for illegal aliens encourages illegal immigration.

and just why do you think that "modern mores" are superior to "traditional mores" anyway? based on what standard? don't tell me we are more highly evolved and therefore superior? surely no chronological superiority on this page...

zimzo said:

I think I might have turned the entire site into italics somehow.

zimzo said:

On traditional mores vs. modern mores go back and read the comments on this post since it's too long to summarize here:

As far as "encouraging illegal immigration" what's encouraging it now? And don't tell me the amnesty passed back in the 1980s. I'm sure all the illegal immigrants sat down and said, "Ordinarily, I wouldn't want to violate the immigration laws but I feel encouraged by Reagan's immigration bill."

David, I acknowledged the distinction between adult and kid gang members in my reply to Jonathan.

In the post on your blog, I still contend, Jonathan's treatment of the question of RICO definitely seems to belittle the idea that there is an organized crime element to the gang phenomenon - and then in your comment you explicitly say "This is not an organized crime enterprise, and approaching it as if it is will make the problem worse."

Now, maybe we are talking past each other, and neither you nor Jonathan meant to belittle the notion that MS-13 is more than a schoolyard problem, but you must admit what you wrote can be interpreted the way I did, in good faith.

Plus, as you wrote above: "Using fear of gangs and immigration to whip up a voter base might be good partisan politicking, but it's not going to solve the problems that I hope we all agree exist."

I wrote this post to make the case that this is not "whipping up fear." It is a valid concern.

When I spoke with Jonathan on the phone he agreed with me on that point, but I think it is worthwhile to spell it out as this post does, because you can see from the other comments here that not everyone gets the picture. The Loudoun Democrats post is out there for everyone to read, and I think it's fair for me to present an opposing viewpoint.

I think your depiction of Supervisor Delgaudio is innaccurate and disingenuous: He invited the GRIT (youth intervention) speaker, after all. The Supervisor definitely was not advocating a lock 'em up policy towards school kids but towards the older gang members - who are, after all, the ones responsible for the most worrying types of crime.

As to why the Gang Intelligence representatives did not talk more about the organized crime side of MS-13, I have no idea.

They did not mention the people who have been attacked with machetes in Northern VA, either. Perhaps there is some bias toward putting a postive face on things. Without question, though, we do not yet have the same problems that some communities do with gang violence.

That's good for us, and we want to keep it that way by making this county as inhospitable as possible for the criminals. This is one of Supervisor Delgaudio's main concerns and he has been a strong advocate for it.

Go out to the Shenandoah and other parts of Virginia and you'll see there is indeed a serious problem in this state. See the news item above in this post.

This topic is a vital one because gangs certainly are getting some foothold in Sterling and Herndon. What Help Save Loudoun is trying to accomplish is to make residents aware of what is happening elsewhere and what is possible here if citizens are not vigilant.

The news items above clearly show there is a link between illegal aliens communities and gang violence. We have a large illegal alien community here in Sterling. We had a bunch of houses shot up last month by some teenagers who had a fallout with a local gang. We don't want the problem to expand - we want to quash it.

GRIT is important for trying to keep the kids out in the first place. But you have to have your head in the sand to think strict law enforcement and an educated citizenry are not also key elements of fighting the problem.

Had Enough said:

This announcement was in 2004, but it still applies today. Only the illegals have increased and so has the cost.

Davis Introduces Legislation to Redirect Foreign Aid to Pay for Illegal Immigrants’ Medical Costs


The "Country of Origin Healthcare Accountability Act" would reimburse hospitals caring for illegal immigrants with existing foreign aid funds - not US health care dollars

Congresswoman Jo Ann Davis introduced HR 4360, the "Country of Origin Healthcare Accountability Act," (COHAA) which would require that hospitals providing emergency care for illegal aliens be reimbursed with foreign aid funding. Under current law, hospitals are reimbursed with US healthcare funds. This legislation would redirect $250 million annually from USAID funding for hospital reimbursements.

"Under current law, the costs incurred by illegal aliens receiving emergency care in hospitals is paid for with US healthcare funds, and this is bad policy," said Congresswoman Jo Ann Davis (VA-01). "Hospitals and medical providers have an obligation to provide emergency care for those in need, regardless of citizenship. However, the financial burden to pay for care for illegal immigrants should fall upon the illegal alien’s country of origin - not HHS funding. My legislation would redirect foreign aid funding to meet these costs and put the responsibility on foreign nations that contribute to the illegal immigration problem," added Davis.

Specifically, COHAA would redirect $250 million annually from the existing Foreign Aid budget and make it available to the Secretary of Health and Human Services to reimburse hospitals and medical providers for costs incurred from care for illegal aliens. For example - if an illegal immigrant receives emergency medical care, the hospital would receive reimbursement from foreign aid funds that would be available for countries including Mexico.

"America’s immigration laws must be rigorously enforced, and the problem of illegal immigration is serious," said Davis. "American citizens should not be forced to pay for the medical treatment of illegal aliens, particularly when many Americans already struggle to pay their own medical expenses. There are over 8 million illegal aliens in the United States, and health care treatment of illegal aliens imposes a substantial cost on medical providers and hospitals in many American communities. This cost should be shouldered by these foreign countries, not with US healthcare dollars," added Davis.

(No matter how you cut it, the taxpayers are getting the ax) But, she did have a good approach. This woman is tireless when it comes to illegals. Also Virgil Goode. It is a shme they are not in Northern Virginia.

Jack said:


Where is you evidence that Christians commit more crimes than Jews? I have presented sources, please do the same.

I am NOT suggesting that we forbid immigration of Hispanics. What I am saying is that Hispanics have a higher crime rate than the general population, so more Hispanics will result in higher crime. Do you disagree with that?

Crime rate: You cite only the last year to state that the crime rate has gone up during the Bush Administration. From 2001 to 2005, the crime rate has gone DOWN 2.65%. How is down up?

Furthermore, what Constitutional provision allows the feral government to pay for State and local police?

Murder rates: According to the 2004 FBI UCR, the top five murder states are Louisiana, Maryland, New Mexico, and Nevada. But except for NM, all are lower now than in 1995.

-------------- 1995 - 2005

Wyoming has had, over the last ten years, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the nation, about half to two-thirds of the national rate. Alaska is right about average now (5.6 vs 5.5 per 100k), and has been hovering around the average for the last ten years.

You may go find the stats yourself at Where did your HCI friend get his stats?

Quotas: The reality is that we cannot absorb everyone who wants to come here. Do you disagree? Assuming we cannot take in everyone who want to be here (never mind the national security issues), we must then have quotas. How do you propose to stop the flow when the quotas are reached? What would you do with those who come in illegally, even with realistic quotas? What do YOU think are realistic numbers?

Jack said:


I am sure you will be condemning Syria for closing its borders:


Jonathan said:


Supervisor Delgaudio asked the GRIT members if they would be interested in spearheading a RICO case. He told them that he would ask Congressman Wolf for an additional $2.5M. The Loudoun GRIT team indicated that a Federal Case, is as it sounds in the laymans vernacular, a big deal and not appropriate for Loudoun.

Remember that the most serious gang violence case involved a shooting by youth where upset about not being allowed into a gang. In that case, there was no organized crime root cause. It seems that youth intervention through parks and recreation, the Loudoun Youth Initiative and of course, the schools would provide the most bang for the buck.

I've talked to substitute teachers who refuse to work at Sterling Middle School and Park View High School because the kids there are out of control. Sterling presents a classic situation where Supervisor Delgaudio is hostile to school funding - he is a signatory to the group and the School Board rep, Warren Geurin is "best friends" with the executive director of VA CWA - no friend to public education. It seems that these people are ideologically incapable of getting their boots on the gound to engage the community to build the most effective and resilient grass roots mechanism to fight the problem.

While I understand that there are class and culture issues in Sterling, the fact of the matter is that the buck stops with two responsible local elected officials. Delgaudio doesn't seem to be using the means at his disposal and is instead grandstanding and making a grab for federal tax dollars.


Now I think I see the root of the confusion on the RICO issue: Those two presenters were NOT the GRIT representatives - only the last guy was. The first two were Gang Intelligence Unit, part of regular law enforcement.

The GRIT representative was the only one whose primary job description is youth intervention.

So I will reiterate: Supervisor Delgaudio was not talking about treating schoolkids like Al Capone.

As to the rest, we really are talking past each other. I don't disagree WHATSOEVER that intervention is the best way to address the problem of youths turning to gangs for identity and support. I'm sure Supervisor Delgaudio would agree, which is why he brought the GRIT representative.

The schoolyard problem does not encompass the entirety of the gang problem, is all I'm saying.

I can't speak to your points about "school funding" as both of my kids graduated before we moved to Loudoun, but will welcome any comments from anyone else who is clued in on this topic.

zimzo said:

Yes, Jack, if you include crime statistics under Clinton and average them out it does look like crime is down! Isn't it amazing what you can do with statistics!

Jack said:


I'm not sure what you are talking about. From the FBI stats, we see that violent crime is DOWN 2.65% since 2001. That is not looking at ANY of the Clinton years.

I ask again: Where did YOUR numbers originate?

zimzo said:

Go back and read this article, Jack:

Jack said:


In your post of August 22, 2006 10:23 PM, you asserted that Bush was responsible for the increase in the crime rate. But even including last year, the crime rate has gone DOWN during his administration.

You brought up Daniel Vice of the former Handgun Control, Inc. You cite his statistics as fact, and I have refuted them with FBI statistic. Where did he get the "fact" you quote?

I'll agree that gun laws have weakened in some places in the last five years. Yet violent crime rates have gone DOWN until 2005. They are BELOW the crime rates at the end of the Clinton administration, according to the FBI.

I ask again: Where did YOUR numbers originate?

zimzo said:

Jack, I'll say this one more time. According to this article, which quotes FBI reports violent crime went up for the first time in 2005. If you want to play games and average all of the years before that, which reflect the residual effects of Clinton's anti-crime programs, and claim on average the crime rate is down, be my guest. It doesn't change the fact that as of now, comparing 2005 with 2004 violent crime rates are trending up. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Everything in my comment came from that article, which was based on an FBI report and quotes with people the reporter interviewed. I make no claims for its accuracy. Someone asked me where I got the idea that crime was going up under Bush and I merely illustrated where I got that idea from.


Yes, the MS-13 activity in the Valley is more serious. The officers talked about the fact that they are running meth labs, for example. As I said, the post in question was tightly focused on some commentary by Mr. Delgaudio that was, frankly, ridiculous, but we may just have to agree to disagree on the role he plays in local politics. It is my opinion that he simply grandstands and divides people, and a lot of Republicans happen to agree with me.

What I understand the GRIT reps to have been saying (and remember that this is second-hand) is that in Loudoun, the gang activity is limited to turf wars, and there is not organized criminal activity that rises to the level that would involve RICO. RICO has to be applied in a very specific way.

Not to minimize the fact that gang members are fighting each other with machetes, but the point that the officers were making was that this is strictly an inter-gang, turf war activity, and that gang members are not indiscriminately attacking people on the street as some might have been led to believe.

Jack said:

Granted, crime rates are up from 2004 to 2005. So when is one year is a trend, versus the previous 15 years?

"Someone asked me where I got the idea that crime was going up under Bush and I merely illustrated where I got that idea from."

Since the crime rates have, INCLUDING 2005, gone DOWN under Bush, will you admit that you were wrong?

Now, I will ask another question AGAIN: What Constitutional provision allows the feral government to pay for State and local police?

David: Let's congratulate ourselves on having reached a gentlemanly conclusion.

Jack and Zimzo: You are so far ahead of the rest of us on this tangent that all we can do is watch in awe as you battle it out. It was so much simpler when you were simply trying to decide whether to put tracking collars on visa holders.

Jack said:


I was suggesting anklets, but I suppose collars would work, too.

Jack, we're just a couple of old men. Nowadays it would be RFID tags implanted under the skin.

Jack said:

Dang, Joe, I even designed in an EE class as Mason! I didn't think of that, though. We could tell them their getting innoculations, and inject it without their knowing it!

zimzo said:

I would love to reach a gentlemanly conclusion with Jack. I'm actually a bit tired and bored of this tangent. Let me put it this way, Jack. The stock of company X has an average growth rate over the last ten years of 10% a year. In the last year it plunged 20%. Would you say that company trending up or down? So while you are right that on AVERAGE crime rates may have gone down under Bush, clearly something has gone wrong in the last year, which is all I was pointing out.

Here is what I wrote originally as an aside in a parenthetical: "What's wrong with legalizing the immigrants who are already here and allow our law enforcement agencies to focus on real crime (which, incidentally, because of Bush's cutbacks to pay for his tax cuts and the War in Iraq has been increasing under his administration)?"

"Crime...has been increasing under his administration," I wrote and indeed it has. So can we get off this tangent now?

Jack said:


No, we cannot get off this tanget, because you are lying. The present continuous verb form, "has been increasing," implies something that has happened in the past and is continuing to happen. That is not the case.

The TRUTH is that crime HAD BEEN (past continuous) until the past year.

Your data on the states mentioned in the article were lies, and I have refuted them. Do you stand by them? If you do, provide me with your supporting data, as I have done for you. I ask AGAIN: Where did YOUR numbers originate?

Furthermore, a single data point does not make a trend. I have owned private company stock (as has Jacob, I might add), the price of which was re-evaluated each quarter. If the price went down one quarter, no-one thought it was a trend. Down two or three quarters in a row is another matter.

You want to blame Bush for a non-existent trend. But the feral government is NOT responsible for state and local law enforcement.

Since you want to blame Bush for this non-existent trend, ANSWER MY QUESTION:

What Constitutional provision allows the feral government to pay for State and local police?

You have also not answered my questions on immigration quotas. I will repeat them yet AGAIN:

1) The reality is that we cannot absorb everyone who wants to come here. Do you disagree?

2) Assuming we cannot take in everyone who want to be here (never mind the national security issues), we must then have quotas. How do you propose to stop the flow when the quotas are reached?

3) What would you do with those who come in illegally, even with realistic quotas?

4) What do YOU think are realistic numbers?

Jack said:

My apoplogies for the mistyping. I meant to say:

The TRUTH is that crime HAD BEEN (past continuous) DECREASING under Bush until the past year.

Jack said:

Dang. A-P-O-L-O-G-I-E-S.

zimzo said:

Yes, Jack, I'm lying but you're just too clever for me. I'm not as good at it I guess as Bush and his boys.

Ny the way you keep misspelling "federal." You should watch that. It might make people think you're dumb.

zimzo said:

Oh dang, that was supposed to be B-Y not N-Y.

Jack said:


I use the word feral as it is meant. Since the 17th Amendment, our central government has no longer been federal, because the State governments have no part in it. Being no longer under control, it has gone feral. Certainly with Bush in office, we can agree on THAT.

Bush lies? I cannot cite specifics, but I don't doubt it anyway. He IS a politicial. However, I don't believe he has lied under oath yet, unlike the previous officeholder.

Now, are you going to answer my immigration questions?

zimzo said:

You have a problem with Senators being popularly elected? Oh, that's not extreme....

Jack said:

Yes, I do. The rash of unfunded mandates is the result.

Again, I have answered your question. Will you not answer mine? Do I need to repeat them AGAIN?

Jack said:

I see nothing "extreme" in the belief that the authors of the Constitution were correct in having the States choose how their Senators are chosen, just as the States still decide how their Preidential electors are chosen, and that the 17th Amendment was a mistake, as was the 18th, which was repealed.

The 16th was also a mistake.

Furthermore, being extreme does not make one incorrect.

LovellReiley said:

Still searching for your support for this statement:
"I have already pointed out that Hispanic crime rate is 3 times the White crime rate. [crime committed in Hispanic communities; by Hispanic criminals??? what kind of crime?] More Hispanics means more crime.[More people mean more crime; so let's have zero population growth; then, the human race will die out and they'll be no more crime!]"

I can find no study that confirms your assertions about the Hispanic crime rate, and certainly no supporting data specific to crime in Virginia.

In fact, this report by the US Dept. of Justice appears to refute your opinions:

Your assertions from "statistics" resemble all too closely this man's "commentary" about violent crime and blacks which are obviously driven by his desire to provide a "factual" predicate for his personal prejudice:

Contrast your assertions about Hispanics with these well-documented findings by Virginia's Joint Legislative Audit and Review Committee:

"JLARC staff also found that the State correctional system does not appear disproportionately impacted by the foreign-born. Based on data from the Virginia Department of Corrections (DOC), the foreign-born represented approximately ten percent of the inmate population in State facilities as of June 30, 2003. While these data indicate that the foreign-born are over-represented in the correctional system, the data also indicate that the foreign-born have substantially lower average prison sentences than native-born inmates. [Since we have truth in sentencing in Virginia and sentencing guidelines, lower prison sentences means that they have been convicted of less serious crimes.] Different average sentence lengths impact correctional costs. Therefore, while foreign-born inmates account for ten percent of the total number of inmates, they account for only six percent of the costs."

And, look at this study that reports that crime rates are lower in Hispanic immigrant communities despite expectations based on socio-economic issues, etc.

Bottom line ... at best, you appear to be selectively reporting statistics in a manner designed to support your strong personal opposition to immigration, particularly by Hispanics.

Jack said:


Your point is well taken, and I apologize for not providing my sources.

Your sources are also interesting. The first is a study of victims, not perpetrators. The second is a racial rant, and I have seen it before, but its being a racial rant does not alter the fact that Blacks commit more crimes than Whites and Hispanics.

The third, Virginia-specific source, is quite interesting. It says that 10% of the Virginia prison population is foreign-born, but only 6% of the Virginia population is. Furthermore, since their sentences are shorter, they are committing even more crimes than the 10:6 ratio indicates.

Aside from that, the Black prison populatioin in VA is 61.7%, so the White prison population is 18.3% (assuming all others are White). Blacks are 20% of the VA population, foreigners 6%, thus Whites 74%. Now let's work those ratios:

Whites...18.3/74 = 0.25
Blacks...61.7/20 = 3.09
Both.....90/94 = 0.96
Foreign..10/6 = 1.67

Foreign:White = 1.67/0.25 = 6.68

That's actually far higher than the 3x number I gave.
Putting the Blacks in too gives:

Foreign:Other = 1.67/0.96 = 1.74.

Better than 6.67, but still higher than the native-born population.

Your last source is very difficult to read, and does seem to refute the theory that immigration is cause of crime. However, I'd like to see a more in-depth paper, if they have published one. They mention "adjusting for family and neighborhood background." I'd like to see their methods. Also, we should be clear that we our problem is with ILLEGAL immigration, which does not allow for background checks on the immigrants. Frankly, I am not at all surprised that immigrants who took the time and trouble to come here legally would have a lower propensity to comit crime. They worked hard to get here, and are not going to jeopardize that.
(It may be noted that it is the young, native-born Muslim men that are giving the European countries problems.)

As I have said before, I agree that we should increase the immigration quotas. It is with ILLEGAL immigration that I have a problem.

Jack said:

BTW, I got the Black prison population stats from "".

Jack said:

One other quick personal note:

My wife's job is teaching English to new immigrants. The vast majority are legal, and some are even being helped to pay for the classes by the government. I fully support such government assimilation efforts. The vast majority are VERY hard-working, too, working one or two jobs BEFORE coming to class for four hours every evening. These people have my greatest admiration.

New post on this general topic up at the top of the blog.

Jack said:

Well, it has now been 24 hours, and Zimzo has refused yet again to answer my questions.

I guess, Kevin, that I won that round of "dozens."

Arthur De Volve said:

12 percent of the prison population is illegal aliens...they must be doing something right.

Arthur De Volve said:

Congresswoman Jo Ann Davis introduced HR 4360, the "Country of Origin Healthcare Accountability Act,"

good idea but aren't hospitals prevented from inquiring as to legal status?

My idea. Deport the illegals in prison and pay their own countries to incarcerate them for their full sentences. It's bound to be cheaper than doing it here. Also seize every asset owned by an illegal if you can find any.

Jack said:


I assume HR 4360 would change that.

Obviously, anything an illegal owns he owns illegally. Either he got it from working illegally, or he brought into the without declaring it. Either way, it is forfeit.

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