Mark Foley Scandal

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Mark Foley makes me sick to my stomach. In my opinion, there are only a few crimes I see as worse than sexual crimes against a minor, so good riddance, and I hope criminal charges are filed against him. If anyone knew what was going on, and failed to protect the victims in this situation, they should also be held responsible.

There have been many calls for Dennis Hastert's resignation, and at this point I don't support them. I have yet to see any evidence that Hastert actively participated in protecting Foley, nor do I believe that his prior ignorance of the matter equals negligence.

Foley is gone now, as it should be. Here are some things, off the top of my head, that should not be:

Senator Ted Kennedy killed a girl and is still in office.
Representative Gerry Studs had sex with a page and kept his office.
President Clinton perjured himself in his sexual harrasment trial, and kept his office.
Representative Patrick Kennedy wrecked his car while intoxicated, and is still in office.
Representative Cynthia McKinney assaulted a police officer, and is still in office.

Ethics aside, I have only listed things for which you or I would have gone to jail. I have my issues with the Republican party, but at least they know how to resign in disgrace.

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Moderate 5-19 soon to be known as A Moderate Voice said:

This is what I don’t understand about the GOP. You are supposed to be the party of PERSONNELL RESPOSIBILITY. Now I agree that until we find out what Hastert knew and when he knew we should not be calling for his resignation.

Having said that I don’t get the whole “well they did it (and in your opinion got away with it) so we have some type of pass on our bad behavior. It makes no sense.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that I agree with all you say about the Dems. SO THE HELL WHAT. What is clear about the Foley mess is that someone (probably in the GOP knew something was amiss with Foley and chose to look the other way)

My point is not matter what the Dems may or may not have done, the right thing should have been done in this Page scandal and it was not. And the GOP needs to stop blaming the media, the Dems, George Soroes, the Cathlic clergy, etc, etc, etc,

And can the GOP please stop acting like Foley chose to leave, he was forced out and not by the party but rather because he was caught, after many years, by the media. The GOP ask him to run again even after they knew of some “concerning communications with young Pages”

Now to review you “point on the DEMS

1. Cynthia McKinney lost her primary election after she assaulted the police officer. She was voted out (Thank God) and hopefully she will never show bobble head back in Washington.
2. Patrick Kennedy did wreck car, immediately took responsibility, no other person was harmed and he went to detox. It is up to his constituents rather he goes back to Washington.
3. Clinton disgraced the office of the President and for that he was impeached by a Republican House. It was up to a Republican Senate rather or not he was removed form office, and they voted against removal. Like it or not that’s how the Constitution works. (In my opinion his behavior in office and not his policies will be his lasting legacy, that in itself should be hell for someone as arrogant as Clinton)
4. Gerry Studs was/is disgusting and should have not only been put out of office but also put in jail. I think he should still have to register as a sexual predator. He was re-elected many times by his constituents, and that is beyond me, but again that is how our system works.
5. It’s hard for me to speak to Ted Kennedy; I was too young to remember what happened and everything I ever read has been a view form the left or the right. I don’t know the straight story. But again what ever happened his constituents seems to want him back in office.

Now there have been many more scandals they the one you mentioned, and on both sides of the aisle. And there will likely, sadly, be many more. But for what it’s worth I’m tired of the “but they are so much worse then us” whining. Do the right thing no matter what and no matter who did the wring thing in the past. PERIOD

Jack said:


You're missing the whole point. The point is that Foley did NOT get a pass, but all of the disgraced Democrats DO get a pass.

The only one who didn't was Torricelli, and only because he was trailing by double-digits in the polls. So he resigned, and then the Dems violated state law to get the Lout put on the ballot instead. Whose name is going to be on the ballot in Florida?

As for Clinton, the ONLY president to be legitimately impeached, should have been convicted. Every senator who gave some B.S. about his crime "not rising to the level of impeachment" should be thrown out of office. Their job is to judge guilt or innocence only; the House's job is to indict.

Before using Foley as a reason to vote Democratic, remember that Democrats that get caught stay in office.

Moderate 5-19 soon to be known as A Moderate Voice said:


If it is your goal to give me a headache, you are pretty close to achieving it, LOL

No I did “not miss the whole point” but, perhaps you are missing mine. Lets review history, at the same time Gerry Stubs was caught having sex with a minor a Republican Dan Crane was also caught having sex with a minor (also a page) The GOP did not force his resignation or even ask him to resign, but rather his constituents voted him out of office. If he had won his election he may well still be there. And that would be wrong, Gerry Studs being voted back into office is also wrong (in my opinion) but the constituents spoke thus the system worked.

The GOP is not the Holy Grail who will always do the right thing and clean their own house. Again Foley was not forced out by the party, they were more then willing to keep this quiet and let him be re-elected. Circumstances and the system purged him.

And I would “never use Foley” to vote Democratic; Please give me more credit then that. I’m voting for Webb because I believe he is the better candidate period. (BTW that was the same reason I voted for John Warner)

Jack said:

What "system" "purged" Foley? He resigned! He could have stayed. Is this the same "system" that got Sudds re-elected and given leadership positions?

BTW, Newt DID ask Crane to resign.

Many people ARE arguing that Foley is a reason people should vote for Democrats, even Webb, as though Allen had anything to do with it.

My point is that disgraced Democrats generally stay in office, and disgraced Republicans do not. What was your point?

Moderate 5-19 soon to be known as A Moderate Voice said:

My point is, thats crap.

One more time

The GOP ask Foley to run for re-election even knowing some of his issues with communications with young boys.

They would have been happy to sit silent and let him be re-electd.

And again the GOP did not force Crane out of office, the Constituents did. Had he been re-elected he would have came back.

Jack said:

You said the Republicans did not ask Crane to resign. That was incorrect -- Newt did ask him to resign.

You keep presenting FACTS, which is fine. But what is the POINT to presenting those facts? What conclusion do you expect me to draw from those facts? That Democratic voters don't care if their candidate is scum, but Republican voters do?

SPMM said:

the true partisan would say: if disgraced republicans are so good at resigning, why is Bush and co. still in office? (and what's up with all those medals of freedom, anyway?)

this, "they're worse than us" is just damage control weeks before the election. and it isn't even very creative damage control. (where's Karl Rove when you need him?)

Moderate 5-19 soon to be known as A Moderate Voice said:


Oh so you don't have an issue with the leadership or elected leaders of the Parties. You have issue with the voters.

Hmmm, well you best get over that. I find it incredibly sick that anyone would vote for Stubs but vote they did. I find it just as sick that people voted for Bull Conner, or Orval Faubus or Ross B Barnett. But vote for all of them they did

That is how our system works.

You may have to one day take up these issues with all those guys who came up with that document called the Constitution.

Jack said:


I see you're taking up the debate methods of the liberals. If someone has a problem with A, then he cannot also have a problem with B. That's crap. In fact, I mentioned that I DID have a problem with the Dems in the House giving Stubbs a standing ovation and leadership positions. We do not yet know who knew what about Foley. However, so far there is no indication at all that Foley did anything improper after the email came to the attention of the Dennis Hastert, who told Foley to stop all such communication.

You might also note that the authors of the Constitution did not give the franchise to every ignorant wretch who could put an X on a peice of paper.

No Relation said:

Thanks for your comments, everyone.

SPMM- Can you point to a clear-cut, indisputable criminal act that has been perpetrated by the Bush administration? If not, you've completely changed the subject.

Moderate Voice- My point was that these people, regardless of party, should have been put in jail, as you or I would be for the same CRIMES. I hope this is the fate waiting for Foley. Elected officials are not above the law, it shouldn't be up to voters once they have crossed that line.

Nancy Pelosi and her friends have turned this thing partisan by trying to blame as many Republicans as they can. That's why I used the "they're worse than us" approach, if it can be called that, in order to expose her hypocrisy. I think the Democratic Party would have been better off with their mouths shut, letting the damage be done, rather than forcing Republicans into the defensive.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

"let's not talk about the current scandel within the GOP, let's talk about anything Democrats have done over the past century." about changing the subject

Moderate 5-19 Soon to known as A Moderate Vocie said:


Ha, Ha, Ha,

A couple of weeks ago I was accused of spouting Conservative talking points right here on this very blog, now you say I sound like a liberal.

Hmmmm, must be a moderate.

Anyway, I think we found a place of agreement, of which I have all ready stated. I am disgusted with how the whole Stubbs mattered was handled and as I said I still continue to believe he should be forced to register as a sexual predator.

That was not the issue. The issue is that you seem to believe that the GOP has some higher standard for their elected officials who are involved in, lets call it less the desirable activities. I think that’s crap. I think history proves that the GOP has elected and re-elected just as much scum as the Dems. What usually happens is that the people will purge a disgraced politician a hell of a lot faster then the Party will.

And on both sides of the aisle the people (in my opinion), will sometimes continue to keep a slug in office. I don’ like it but that’s the system.

And by the way you are delusional if you don’t realize the Constitution was written to protect and give rights to EVERY MAN even the “ignorant wretches who could not put an X on a piece of paper”. The fact that you don’t realize that may just be the root of the problem.

The constitution creates the establishment of a Democratic-Republican system in which people vote for their representatives, although the constitution itself addressed mostly the Federal Government. However, while the constitution establishes the right of men to vote, it does not actually list any guidelines though which this is done and leaves it up to the states. The only parts of the constitution that mention individual voting rights only do so in order to prevent states from denying any man his franchise rights.
You may want to read Article 4, The Tenth Amendment, The Thirteenth Amendment The Fourteenth Amendment, The Ninetieth Amendment (You may even want to read Baker v Carr).

I could go on but I think you have enough homework for now.

Jack said:

The subject of the elections should be the issues facing the nation, such as national security, border security, and the imminent collapse of Social Security. Mark Foley is NOT running for Congress. Trying to make him an issue is trying to change the subject, because the Dems are weak on all of the above issues.

Jack said:


There you go again. I say, "The founding fathers didn't give X," and you say, "You're wrong, they did give Y!" The constitution did NOT give everyone the vote. Yes, other rights were granted to everyone, but not voting rights.

Yes, I do think the Republicans have higher standard than the Democrats. Disgraced Democrats stay in office, and the Democratic voters keep re-electing them; Disgraced Republicans either resign or are voted out by the Republican voters.

Moderate 5-19, soon to be known as A Moderate Voice said:

Okay Jack,

This will be my last post on this thread, I’ve appreciated the interesting and respectful discussion, but I’ve spent more time talking to you over the past 24 hours then my family.

First try going back and reading again what I said about the Constitution and voting, we may be saying the same thing, but with different speak. Not sure anymore. I said

“…the constitution establishes the right of men to vote, it does not actually list any guidelines though which this is done and leaves it up to the states. The only parts of the constitution that mention individual voting rights only do so in order to prevent states from denying any man his franchise rights”.

You said “The constitution did NOT give everyone the vote.

Establishing the right to vote is not the same as giving one the right to vote so I think we are on agreement on this one.

However the bottom line is we clearly disagree on the issue of rather GOP politicians have a higher standard then the Dems when disgraced. And I believe I have given facts to back up my beliefs that you can’t dispute.

The clearest example of this is Foley. One last time let me say, the GOP was not only going to let him stand for re-election but even remain the Chairman of the Missing and Exploited Children Committee. GOP leaders did not even try to further investigate Foleys behaviors that we now know go back six years; even though there were clear signs something was amiss with Foley. They were willfully ignorant and that is unacceptable.

Not to mention that the GOP has totally lost any and all credibility on the “we take personal responsibility” line when they started blaming everyone on earth for leaking this story with absolutely no proof, (as if that even matters). At this point it looks as if only GOP elected officials knew about Foley.

I no longer think the question is rather the GOP leadership knew, I think the question is did they want to know; and clearly the answer is; no they did not.

And one last time let me be clear, I think the Dems response to Gerry Studds (and other Dems equally disgusting acts), has been disgraceful. In fact Studds still should have to register as a sexual predator. I’ve repeatedly said that starting with my first post on this thread.

Anyway at this point we are just saying the same things over and over. Kind of like the North and South going Zacks in a Dr. Seuss book.

So Sir I will say to you what Bill O’Reilly (yuck) says just abut every night.

I’ll give you the last word. Enjoy

Jack said:

Thank you, and I'll take the last word.

By all accounts so far, no-one in the Republican leadership knew about the IM's, which are far more damning that the email. Upon learning of the 2005 email, the leadership told Foley to stop, and he did. (The email was not even sexually explicit, it just asked for a picture.) Even a search of Foley's computer would not have discovered anything, because IMs and not normally saved. Someone DID save those IMs, for three years, and waited until now to release them.

The FBI is still trying to discover something illegal in Foley's actions. (Studds, however, clearly violated the law.) This is a bit backward. Usually, a crime is committed, and they look for a suspect. Now they have a suspect, and they're looking for a crime.

Clinton also committed a crime, perjury, for which he was impeached. The only president to be legitimately impeached, and he's still a hero to the Democratic Party. Nixon would have been impeached, but he, unlike Clinton, had the grace to resign.

In all your examples, not once did a disgraced Democrat resign or not win re-election. The only example of that was one I gave, which was Torricelli. He resigned because he was trailing by double digits in the polls. Then the Democrats violated state law to get Lautengerg on the ballot. Is Foley's name going to be replaced? No. Is Tom Delay's name going to be replaced? No.

If you cannot see the difference between the actions of the two parties, you are blind, and there are none so blind as those who will not see.

zimzo said:

A couple factual corrections to Jack's post for the benefit of others (since I know Jack himself doesn't let facts get in the way of his opinions):

On AOL saving of Instant Messages is enabled automatically. Many people also use Trillian for all of their Instant Message programs, which also saves IMs.

While what Gerry Studds did was wrong it was not illegal. The age of consent in Washington, DC is 16. The page Studds had sex with was 17.

Ironically, if Foley had sex with any of the pages in DC he would not have violated DC law. However, by soliciting sex with pages he may have violated Federal law which prohibits solicitation of anyone under 18 no matter what the age of consent laws are in a particular state. This law was written by...Mark Foley.

Jack said:


Thanks for the correction. Do you know what IM program Foley was using?

None of the IMs or emails that have come to light so far indicates that Foley was soliciting sex -- just having "cybersex" and generally being a creep. The FBI is still trying to find whether Foley violated any laws. For the page's sake, I hope he did not, but I'd sure like to see him in jail.

As for Studds, giving a 17-year-old alcohol, and taking him across state lines (or national lines) for sex, are both crimes.

No Relation said:


Since we are talking technicalities, I want to ask...Are you sure Studds committed no crime?

I was also unaware that DC was where his crimes occured. In Virginia, Studds would have been guilty of the crimes of "fornication" and "contributing to the delinquincy of a minor". These charges are frequently brought against adults who have sex with a partner under the age of 18, since the age of consent in Virginia is 15 and statutory rape cannot be charged.

Rose Sylvia said:

At some point we have to realize that punishing the guilty does little to restore the victims. Many perpetrators are victims who repeat what was done to them - others are following what we have collectively allowed to be socially acceptable.

Before you say they aren't explain how the examples you give are still popular and successful. If the majority in society condemned their actions - or at least didn't condone special treatment for them - they wouldn't be where they are now.

Punishment can be equated with revenge applied by a group. It does little to prevent more of the same. Humans make mistakes. Humans have major issues at least partially because of how hypocritical societies are.

EVERY PERSON if they are truly honest with themselves, has things in their past they hide from others because they know they would be judged and condemned by family and friends - and the guiltier the family and friends the more vocally would they be condemned.

I am NOT saying that everyone has killed someone or been a child molester. I AM saying that punishing anyone for anything does NOT address the CAUSE.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

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