"We are all Spaniards now"

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Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

alright, I'll respond to this.

I just want to say that, people like to say things like, "the Muslim world is stuck in the dark ages." But this radicalization is a more recent thing. The trend in the middle east was to modernize and westernize. Over the course of the 20th century, People started wearing suits, the fez, shaving beards (I think turkey actually fined people with beards, and outlawed religious political parties in an effort to modernize) Women regularly wore their hair down, without a hijab. This started to change around the 1970s (rise in political influence of mujahadeen, etc.)

despite it's old-timey feel, this radical 'islamization' is really a very modern movement. Maybe even post-post modern. 'They' don't want to revive some Islamic paradise from the distant past. In the past, Islamic rulers tended to be much more tolerant of other religions than Christians were (esp. under Ottoman rule). The Islamic world, Baghdad in particular, because the center of culture and learning during Europe's dark ages.

In contrast, this new movement doesn't seem concerned with high culture, learning, and tolerance. If post-modernism is about coming to terms with the relative nature of things, Islamism seems like a violent reaction to that relativism, which says, "there is no relativity, there is no interpretation. there is one god and he creates one reality. Therefore there is no room for disagreement. anyone who disagrees with US disagrees with HIM." In theory, it is not an ideological or cultural struggle, but a struggle over how people perception reality itself. Of course in practice it is also a vehicle to power.

The point is that this isn't Islam, the ancient religion, but a modern movement we call 'Islamism'


So from that book review, it sounds like the author wants to combat this movement by becoming more like it and beating it at it's own game. As if more half-crazed, irrational fanaticism is going to help matters. Samuel Huntington's book spread through academic and political circles, and because a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not this guy wants the book of revelations to follow Huntington's lead. he says we should denounce multiculturalism, become more entrenched in our Anglo-American culture and Christian Religion (is he speaking only to TRUE Americans?), and what? hunker down till Armageddon? Marvelous.

You are correct on the history of the modern manifestation of Islamic extremism, but in defense of each author's claims it does not seem inaccurate to conflate that with "Islam" in general.

I've added a link to a newer article commenting on these two.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

but you know people try to twist the message of religion for their own political/ideological ends. by bringing people together, all religions have the potential for good. by creating an exclusive relationship with God, they also have the potential to get ugly. I think it's important to distinguish between Muslims and terrorists, just as I think we should distinguish the positive aspects of Christianity from the the interpretations of the KKK in the US, or the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda.

What good could come from saying all Islamic teachings are driven by psycho-fanaticism? How does that help us up to better understand our enemy? It doesn't. It only serves as simple-minded, ethno-religious propaganda. And there's enough of that in the world already.

I agree, partly. But the KKK is six guys in sheets marching through Annapolis (which is what they've been since the 1920s). Uganda is a cluster-you-know-what. Maybe they have that in Congo or Sudan also. But give me a break. The phenomenon we're talking about with Islam is millions and millions of people across continents.

Kevin said:

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__________http://www.prussianblue.net/

Kevin, I'm highly intrigued by this. My "Verizon High Speed" unfortunately does not allow the bandwidth to listen to audio files, (or, really, to surf the Internet) but in certain cases I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I assume the subjects in question are from Spain?

Oohhh-kay. Now I see, Kevin. I think I owe you a Natty-Bo, poured right on top of your head. Thanks and you got me.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

you're saying there are millions and millions of Muslim extremists, or millions and millions of Muslims?

also, at one point in history, the KKK was a big deal, and it's rhetoric was full of religious overtones. But I don't think if would have been correct, even back then, to say that the problem with their ideology was Christianity itself, or that they were speaking on behalf of the christian world (or where they?)

No Relation said:

Kevin,
I get your point, but what the hell are you listening to? I'm gonna listen to some Slayer now, in the hopes of regaining my manhood.

Kevin said:

Joe B, thanks for linking the update. A good start in addressing that awful review of Steyn's book. In particular I share in disappointment when 1. people extrapolate from someone else's quotations of someone else's statistics; 2. people project their own views onto what someone "really meant to say, but didn't have the courage to".

Joe,FN- I'll take my Natty chilled.

NR- Slayer, sweet. I'm crankin' Stryper, "To Hell With the Devil"

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