Imams on a Plane

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No, it's not the new movie starring Samuel L. Mohammed.

Seriously though, these guys were just acting weird, what did they expect? Middle Eastern people on planes are going to feel the way I do when I walk through Camden, New Jersey at night. It's reasonable and natural that the staff and passengers of the plane have suspicion, and reasonable suspicion should dictate further investigation. They had to have known this would happen.

A lawsuit? Because they got their feelings hurt? That's just ridiculous.

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Jack said:

No, it is perfectly reasonable -- if the intent is to soften up airport security.

stay puft said:

according to the article, "The men said the arrest was degrading and a violation of their civil rights"

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Jack said:

Their arrest was NOT a violation of their civil rights, and it's being degrading is irrelevant. The airlines have the right to refuse service to ANYONE, especially when they intentionally make other passengers uncomfortable.

Ted said:

US Airways and the passengers should counter sue the (non) Flying Imams for disrupting the airline's business and causing loss of income, loss of wages for the pax and emotional distress.

No Relation said:

Poof...disagree...especially since they weren't actually arrested.

We need to get Samuel L Jackson on this pronto: "I want these moth------ Imam's off this moth------ plane!"

No Relation said:

Joe, thanks for being the first one to get my joke. I gotta get a better sense of humor.

No these bozos around here need to wake up. You're doing just fine.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

Your whole take on this situation is a joke, but excuse me for not finding your substituting "Snakes" with "Imams" as particularly hilarious.

Jack, what makes you use the word, "intentionally"

Should people not be allowed to pray before a flight?

Should Muslims in US airports feel afraid to say a prayer before getting on a plane? Is this how people are assimilated? by being singled out?

The more American Muslims feel like a they're a part of our society, the better.

These were US citizens, they have every right to practice their religion in public spaces. If this happened to a christian, you're heads would all explode and you'd be ranting about a liberal war on religion.

Christ almighty

zimzo said:

Actually, I admire Joe's and No Relation's restraint. They could have called it "Ragheads on a Plane." I'm sure they thought about it.

"The imams' prayer was reported by the gate agent, who told police "I was suspicious by the way they were praying very loud." Another flight attendant said she noticed three to four people praying but did not consider it unusual."
One passenger said the men were near the ticket counter and "seemed angry," and engaged in a "heated discussion" about the U.S. "killing Saddam" Hussein, and then shouting "Allah, Allah, Allah" when called for boarding."

"Passengers and the flight crew say the men were disruptive and did not take their assigned seats and formed a pattern similar to the September 11 hijackers. Some of the men asked for seat-belt extensions they did not need, criticized the war in Iraq and President Bush, and talked about al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. "

You can get held off a flight for looking crossways at an employee nowadays. If a Buddhist or Sikh or Christian had acted similarly they certainly would have been held off. It appears these guys were looking for a confrontation.

BTW nice to see your true colors, there, Zimzo.

No Relation said:

Actually, Zimzo, "Haji" is the current slur by which the military frequently addresses people of certain nationalities. Funny thing is, in their culture, it's a title of respect.

The six Imams, after acting suspiciously were detained, questioned, and then let go. Do you think strip-searching every single old lady is a better plan?

And Poofy, Christians don't pray for the destruction of America, or the long life of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden. If they did, I'd say the same response was perfectly justified. One of the complaners was an Arabic speaking passenger who knew what they were saying.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:


"Christians don't pray for the destruction of America"

and who exactly does pray for these things? Were this guys saying a "death to america" prayer? or is it the case that if you're praying in Arabic the "death to america" is implied?

Jesus christ, are you dense! How about you stop trying to defend your point of view long enough to see that you're full of crap!?!?

No Relation said:

Poofy, how naive are you?

The majority of Muslims in the world want to see America go up in flames. Sorry dude, that's the way they are. And don't say I'm wrong until you've taken a trip to their part of the world.

I told you, the "death to America" was not implied. There was an Arabic speaking passenger who translated what they were saying as anti-American rhetoric.

zimzo said:

"The majority of Muslims in the world want to see America go up in flames."

Wow. How paranoid are you?

By the way, I've been to a number of Muslim countries and I don't know where you get that idea from. Of course, George Bush has greatly increased the number of people in the world who are anti-American, not just Muslims.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

NR, I am shocked and disturbed by your assertion that most Muslims want to destroy America. These sorts of misunderstandings are very dangerous.

I know you've been in the ME, but you've got to admit that the Muslims you encountered were living under US occupation. ...and your job was to find the people who want the US to go up in flames, right?

I've been in northern India and Malaysia, and live 25 minutes from Dearborn, the largest Muslim community in the US. I've never encountered this "death to America" attitude. I talked to some people who think the war in Iraq is stupid and Bush is an idiot, which I more or less agree with. And they always said something like, "I disagree with Bush's policies, but that is separate from the American people,"

I also talked to some people who thought Bush is a bad-ass motherf---er, so...

so, I'm afraid you're incorrect (but way to make the most of Joe's "no calling people bigots resolution"!)

also, I can't find anything about this arabic speaker you mentioned.

Where did you read that someone translated what they were saying to be anti-American rhetoric?

It's strange, if they were saying, "We will destroy America!" before getting on a plane, that this wasn't a bigger story (what better way for the admin. to divert attention from the prosecutor scandal?), or that they aren't in gitmo right now. Somehow I don't think that's what they were saying...

No Relation said:

I heard about the Arabic speaker on the TV news. I can't find another source to back that up, but here are several sources that have witnesses stating they were making anti-American comments.

And what's with the switching seats and seatbelt extenders? Sorry, I think they're actions were intentionally meant to get a response.

I think we have different perceptions of the Muslim world's attitude toward America. Keep in mind people aren't always going to tell you what they really think.

Jack said:

"Wow. How paranoid are you?"

Not paranoid enough.

stay puft marshmallow man said:

are you admitting you're paranoid, Jack? This could be a major breakthrough!

Jack said:

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

hey, didn't Kurt Cobain say that?

Jack said:

He may have, but it certainly did not originate with him.

It could certainly have been said by Bobby Fischer with all sincerity.

Kevin said:

"I think we have different perceptions of the Muslim world's attitude toward America. Keep in mind people aren't always going to tell you what they really think."

however, you, of all people, are the one person who has been gifted with the sixth sense to know what that they REALLY think.

It's a double bind. The ones who aren't saying "death to america" are guilty anyways, you would point out?

No Relation said:

Sixth sense? No. I just don't ignore common sense. I don't ignore their actions. I don't ignore the media coming out of that part of the world. I also believe I've studied their culture a bit more thoroughly than you have.

Look at the influence people like Ayatollah Fadlallah have in Lebanon. Look at the public support groups like Hamas and Hezbollah enjoy. Look at the way groups like HiG and Taliban, who usually war with each other, band together against America.

I won't bore you with my many personal experiences with the ones who have pretended to be on our side. You'd blame it on my own "bias", I'm sure. Do your own research with an open mind and you'll find out the truth.

Jack said:

I don't see CAIR condemning Islamist terrorist attacks. Until they do, they should not be trusted.

spmm said:

"I don't ignore their actions"

WHOSE actions?

I think when someone says, "Muslim," you hear "terrorist." and that's a problem.


are you kidding?

Jack said:

That was over four years ago, puffy. Now, they fight every effort to protect our troops and our citizens.

stay puft marshmallow man said:

i can't post a response it goes to this error page every time

stay puft marshmallow man said:

"Now, they fight every effort to protect our troops and our citizens" I say you're full of crap.

you said, "I don't see CAIR condemning Islamist terrorist attacks. Until they do, they should not be trusted."

then I went out to their website, and see that their main page is chuck full of links to stuff about condemnations of terrorism, like the 10,000 page "We condemn terrorism" thing I posted a link to above, as well as an article in support of an anti-terrorism fatwa, a "25 principles of CAIR" in which they ask Muslims to assist the FBI in searching for wanted fugitives, and reiterate their condemnation of terrorism, and an article about a petition signed by 700,000 people called, "Not in the Name of Islam" which is a denunciation of terrorism

and you say, "I don't see CAIR condemning Islamist terrorist attacks"

clearly you aren't looking.
stop pretending to be an authority their activities.

stay puft marshmallow man said:

the links:

Jack said:


They talk a nice game, but where is their money spent, and what lawsuits do they support? Are they not supporting these imams who want to soften up our airport security?

stay puft marshmallow man said:

"these imams who want to soften up our airport security?"

there you go pretending to be a expert on other people's motives.

You don't know what was going on on that plane, you don't know why who did what and what for. You don't know who's telling the most accurate account of what happened. You're just running your mouth.

That's why a lawsuit is a good thing. Let all the details come out, let everyone tell their story, and let there be a fair ruling.

We can't say, "some crazies want to destroy America, so we should have to limit to the amount of paranoid profiling we'll accept against anyone of of the same religion" and expect that to make things better.

Let's find out if anyone's civil rights were violated. Let's find out whether this is a case of overly paranoid passengers or activists looking to pick a fight.

You supported their removal from the plane, now you're complaining that they're going to get their day in court. What's it going to take for you to own up to the fact that you think American Muslims should be viewed with suspicion and ought to have fewer rights?

Answer this: Do you agree or disagree that the more a group feels alienated from American society, the easier it will by for radical anti-American ideologies to take hold within that group?

Jack said:

And how would a lawsuit help? I don't really care what their intentions are, but the effect is to soften security and to make people afraid to speak out for fear of being sued. The passengers did nothing improper, but are being sued.

Do you really think the truth will come out it court? People will just say what they've been saying. Saying it in court will make no difference.

Yes, American Muslims SHOULD be treated with suspicion, just as Japanese- and German-Americans were during WWII.

BTW, an office-mate of mine, who holds a Secret clearance, was detained becuase his name matched that on a terrorist watch list. He's Irish.

They are already alienated from American society, and anti-American ideologies have already taken hold in that group.

stay puft marshmallow man said:

Not in Dearborn. Muslim communities are an important part of communities throughout SE Michigan, and I'd much prefer that to isolating and alienating people in those communities a la the Japanese Americans during WWII.

We ought to see that Muslim communities are a great asset to the US. Not only in a practical way, by providing translators for example (Arabic is a difficult language), but also by setting a precedent of peaceful coexistence (ie. no one can ever say, "it's simply not possible for Muslims and non-Muslims to live side-by-side peacefully)

as to the trial, I think it'll serve as an opportunity for everyone to sit down and tell their stories. We'll find out what that Arabic speaker heard them say, why they asked for seatbelt extenders, etc. In other words, the whole story, instead of just "You violated our civil rights" "no we didn't" "yes you did" etc. etc.

but in a broader sense, I have to wonder, when things like civil rights, due process, freedom of the press, and limitations on government spying are all seen as threats to the survival of our way of life, what are we fighting for? It sounds like our way of life is a threat to our way of life.

At some point, if we're really concerned with preserving our way of live, we have to stand up and say enough is enough!

People like to talk about how liberals are cowards and all of it, but it takes more bravery to say, "It may be a dangerous world, but we're going to make sure that every citizen's rights are protected, and that there is freedom and justice for all" because THAT's the American way of life: give me liberty or give me death!

Jack said:

Ah, yes, the "it can't happen here" argument. They were all nice, well-adjusted young muslims in London, too.

Back to the imams, since they do not have a right to fly on the plane, their removal did not violate their rights.

As for our way of life, it is not I who favors taking guns away from citizens, or taking away their right to free speech via campaign finance laws, or taking their right to go to the doctor of their choice. How can you talk about the survival of our way of life, when you do not even support one's right to LIVE? The woman's WAY of life is more important to you than then child's LIFE.

You hypocritical liberals clamor for a woman's "right to choose" (her right to murder her child), but if that child should be so murdered because it is female or homosexual, THEN it's a problem!

Liberty or death? Your liberty IS death! That is the liberty you speak of -- the liberals' liberty of death. Death in the womb by the mother's choice, and death after, because we will not be allowed to protect ourselves, not from terrorists, and not from common criminals.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

what in God's name are you on about?

I didn't say it can't happen here, I said Muslims are a part of our community, not an alienated Other. That makes it less likely to happen here.

but why are you talking about abortion? why are you changing the subject?

...again, you respond to something with the ol'
"Liberals are worse" line.

"Yeah, the republican admin. is working on justifications for torture, domestic spying, ending due process, and putting limitations on the press, but at least they're against abortion. That's the real threat to our freedom"

I don't have a strong urge to get into the "is to, is not" discussion about your insisting on refering to abortion as murder, but who's murdering female and homosexual children? Whaaa??!?

I think I've said what I have to say regarding the Imams. Right now you seem more interested in saying I'm wrong that in having a discussion. You're only interested in hearing about how dangerous Muslims are, and you have an autoimmune reaction to any information to the contrary. but your reasoning is all out of whack, and you're greatest strength is your ability to twist words and facts to fit into your bleak world view.

why like this?

The essence of your arguments is always the same, "I'm right and you're an amoral hypocrite," "You can agree with me or you can be wrong" Maybe your paranoid suspicion of all Muslims as potential terrorists stems from an underlying awareness that you and the terrorists see the world through the same lens.

Kevin said:

BINGO! well put, spmm

zimzo said:

This is why there really is no point to arguing with Jack other than to elicit even more crazier responses than the one before. It's heart-breaking that Joe, who actually is intelligent and articulate, allies himself with such people.

Jack said:

Puffalump -- First, yes, the liberals ARE worse.

The "domestic spying" you have a problem with is monitoring calls from the United States to KNOWN terrorist phone numbers. So only HALF of the conversation was domestic, and there was probable cause.

I'm sorry that I made a leap of logic that you could not follow. Let me take it one step at a time. (As I said, if you were good at thinking, you would be a conservative.)

You were speaking about protecting our "way of life." Since you put LIFE in there, I simply pointed out the hypocracy of wanting to protect a WAY of life, but without a care for LIFE itself, as evidenced by your support for abortion. I then further pointed our the hypocracy of liberal "thought" by mentioning their abhorrence of the idea of aborting females, as occurs frequently now in India, and is drawing U.N. attention, and homosexuals, which a priest mentioned as a possibility if a genetic cause for homosexuality is found.

Back to the Muslims in our community, let me ask a question: How assimilated are the Japanese-Americans now?

Yet we put them in internment camps. Why would the Muslims be different?

You have summed up my point quite well. However, the terrorists and I do not see through the same lens. They see murder as a means to their ends -- I do not.

It seems, though, that the Democrat leaders in the house see eye-to-eye with the terrorists. Both want us to lose in Iraq.

Kevin! Glad to see you have something useful to add.

Zimzo, the reason you don't try to argue with me anymore is that I call you out on your lies.

Kevin said:

Jack, you crack me up. Sometimes I can't tell whether you are being serious or tongue in cheek with your outrageous-ness.

At any rate, it's difficult to come up with anything useful when your stance is, "I'm right and you're an amoral hypocrite".

I don't fool myself into thinking that you are really like that in person.

Stay Puft Marshmallow Man said:

well, Jack, if you want to talk about abortion now, I suppose you ought to start a new thread. Suffice it to say that as someone who does not believe that abortion = murder, it's easy to disagree with your accusations of hypocrisies.

zimzo said:

I'll even suggest a topic for Jack: Give Fetuses Guns.

Jack said:

Kevin -- well, Joe DID want me to keep you libs stoked up while he was busy. At least I do give reasons why I am right and why liberals are amoral hypocrites.

Puffalump -- that's a good idea. I've got a good lead-in for that, too.

Hey!! Zimzo made a funny!!

Kevin said:

Well, I might have to get some "Jack" style reporting together myself here, while the proprietor is AWOL.

At any rate, "I'm right and you're an amoral hypocrite" is an example "that you and the terrorists see the world through the same lens", was just the point, I thought. But I know you don't like me to think :)

Jack said:

On the contrary, Kevin, I would LOVE for you to think. Then you would be a conservative!

Kevin said:

You're not making that point very well, Jack. You should lead by example!

Jack said:

I think, therefore I am a conservative. Is it my fault that you cannot follow my logic?

Kevin said:

You are so ridiculous its almost endearing, Jacko.

Jack said:

Thanks. You guys are a lot of fun to tweak.

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