How to cheat the American people

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I'm not sure were I saw this first, but the message is clear. This clip on YouTube is of a lawyers conference and shows how to get around the spirit of the law not do what is right, and hire foreign workers even though you know there are qualified American workers. The most damning quote: "Our goal here is NOT to find an interested and qualified U.S. worker."

A little background for those that might not know what the H1b program is. It is pushed (hard) by industry to allow the hiring of foreign highly skilled workers. It is supposed to be used in those areas where there is a shortage of qualified American workers, and it is not supposed to allow the hiring of a foreign worker when there is an interested, qualified American worker. (It isn't supposed to allow replacing an American worker with a foreign worker.) Many people have said it does in fact replace American workers with foreign workers. Now Watch the Video.

It is so blatant what is going on it should be criminal. I'm not one for making predictions, but if this doesn't kill the H1b program, then the amnesty bill will also go through. If not now, soon. This is a workshop on "how to" for getting past the legal requirements of hiring qualified American workers so a company can hire cheaper foreign workers. I'm going to be making some phone calls on this one. I'm going to be visiting some offices in D.C. I'll be taking a copy of this with me, and ask why my representative thinks it is okay for companies to cheat the American workers out of a job.

Don't forget the implications. The table up front has at least 6 people (lawyers?) at it (you see 4 on one side). Even if there are only the seven we see, how many billable hours does that represent? This is costing a ton of money, and that is only justified if they are making more on the seminar. How many law firms are attending? we don't know. How many times is this happening? It has to be a lot if the seminar is justified. This is not one rogue law firm. This is teaching how to do this to others.

I've been pushing that the problem with the political system in this country is the political system (party politics) rather than good people running for office and being elected. I have to believe the existence of this video is that system thumbing its nose at the American people. If this is what our elected officials say is for the good of Americans, that there really is a shortage of workers, either they are stupid (Honlon's razor) for believing the firms that tell them there aren't skilled workers, or they know it themselves and are lying. I'm hoping they are just stupid -- that can be fixed.

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Had Enough said:

This has been the goal for years but nobody would listen. These vicious games have been played for years.

Sessions has pointed out that any quest worker program would be open to nothing but fraud.

bill gates cries almost weekly to congress that he can not find any computer programmers and wants to bring half of india here. Strange.... our colleges have graduated thousands of programmers that can not find jobs.

It boils down to a big PayDay for lawyers nationwide just as duct tape was for home depot, ironic that tom ridge now works for home depot after that stunt


I heard today that at one of the Food Lions - in Centreville or Chantilly I think - they have been seen throwing away job applications of all applicants who are not Hispanic.

zimzo said:


I heard today that Hispanic nannies are kidnapping white children to be used in blood sacrifices and secretly replacing them with Hispanic children.


Let me guess, you are one of those that was sacrificed.


Jack said:

They only sacrificed his brain. That's how he became a liberal.


Do you have anything relevant to the topic? It seems you disagree, but so far have not stated why. Did you view the video? Do you have contradictory information? My position on this is not axiomatic, but it is informed -- I can be taught, but it takes reason and evidence.

My response was aimed at trying to produce a more salient response--something other than what is clearly off the subject of H1b visa abuse. Are you saying there is no abuse (after seeing the video?) Or are you saying it doesn't matter that we have abuse of American residents?

Had Enough said:

Brian, after you get to know Zimco better you will swear that he is ted kennedy's love child, anything and everything for the illegals at any expense or consequence to this country and its people.

Okay, so he is a liberal, but even liberals should know *why* they believe what they believe. This isn't even about illegal aliens, this is about those who are here legally, but the immoral actions of businesses that hire them when they know there are residents that would be able to fill the position.

More often than not, it is liberals that see this as an issue to fight (especially those that see it as a labor issue). I see it as an issue of doing what one has said, and of being truthful. If the H1b program were advertised as a means of suppressing wages of skilled labor, lowering costs to business, then fine. But it has not been advertised as such. If it were, and the citizens of this country said it is more important for business to be able to hire skilled workers (engineers, programmers, scientists and such) at lower wages, than for citizens to have jobs (and we, the citizens of this country vote for people who support that view) then so be it.

Truth is one of my axiomatic stands. Truthfulness is right, duplicity is wrong. I am more interested in truth than I am economics.

If Zimzo wants to intelligently state reasons for thinking the H1b program is not duplicitous, I'm willing to listen. In a sense, that is what this forum is all about. But it is not about off the wall comments that add nothing to the discussion of the issues.

zimzo said:

You seem like a nice guy Brian so I'll indulge you. My comment was meant to ridicule Joe for making yet another outrageous unprovable unproven assertion based on hearsay. Joe has made plenty of assertions like this based on equally flimsy premises claiming that immigrants are prone to criminality, are child molesters, are carrying deadly diseases, etc. etc. The only purpose for spreading these irresponsible rumors is to stir up hysteria, so I find it pretty funny that you would ask me to argue the facts when Joe left the facts behind long ago. Check the archives for the innumerable times I and others have fact-checked him only to have him make the same ridiculous assertions again and again.

As far as the video goes, I was shocked--shocked!--shocked to find lawyers advising businessmen how to skirt the law while staying just this side of it. What will they do next? Advise clients on tax loopholes and how to hide their money in tax shelters? I hope it never comes to that!

Of course, HB1 visas have nothing to do with the illegal immigration debate because they are by definition legal immigrants. The only reason you would bring it up in this context is to help stoke anti-foreigner sentiment. If foreigners are all taking our jobs, why is the unemployment rate so low? I also find conservatives newfound concern for the plight of the working man truly ironic. If you are really so concerned about foreigners lowering wages (and since HB1 visas go to highly skilled workers that really isn't the issue here) then why don't you support legalizing immigrants who are already here so that unscrupulous businessmen can't hire them at below the minimum wage? As I have said time and again that really isn't your concern. Your real concern was put more honestly by Had Enough in another thread who said he didn't want one of them marrying his daughter. At least he was honest.

ACTivist said:

I think that zimzo may be getting the picture in relation to big business. We have gone from a "fair" profit to a "greedy" profit doctrine. Hence we export jobs. It is easier to import people to fill those jobs at a reduced wage to keep the profits up and many foreigners are happy with the wages because it is so much more than they would be receiving in most third world countries. The problem is that our countries growth needs to be moderated to avoid spikes so that on the downhill side you may get a depression that wrecks the economy. What do you do with all the "excess and unnecessary" workers that were brought in for the jobs that could have been filled locally? We all must remember our history to avoid like MISTAKES from happening again and, yes, we do need to clean this countries houses from unscrupulous groups and individuals when it is self serving. After all, greed is one of the "deadly sins"!

Jack said:

"even liberals should know *why* they believe what they believe."

That would require the application of logic, at which point the liberal would become a conservative.

Actually pretty much everything I've reported here has been factual, and have only retracted one thing which I did not have 100% positive attribution for.

I don't think I've written a single post about immigrants carrying diseases, but that's Zimzo for you.

These facts I do report tend to be inconvenient to Zimzo's world view, and therefore he goes into conniption fits every month or two.

You will get the sense of this odd mode of "argument" after a short time here.

zimzo said:

You may be right Joe that you never brought up the "immigrants have diseases canard" and I apologize if I misattributed that argument to you. But it has been made here before and you didn't exactly run to disassociate yourself from it. Here is one thread where it was raised:

The child molester argument is just the latest specious argument. Under a post headlined "Aliens Comprise Vast Majority of Child Sex Offenders" you cited a program whose purpose was to focus of cross-border networks of child molesters, so the fact that this particular program netted mainly foreign nationals was hardly surprising. Yet the thrust of your post implying that most child molesters were immigrants "committing unspeakable acts that Americans won't do" was extremely reprehensible, and represented a new low.

Had Enough said:

Zimzo, as usual you tend to twist any facts about the impact of ilegals or legals.

The point has always been that whether they are illegal or legal child molesters, rapists, murderers, etc. they should NOT be here to begin with to commit the crimes they do.

I guess that it does not disturb you when you are constantly reading in the paper and viewing on the evening news that another illegal criminal child molester, rapist, etc. is in jail (at our expense) or waiting to be turned over to ICE after being deported previously.

We are not saying that no Americans commit these crimes, but we are unfortunately stuck with them and have to deal with it, however, we do not need to import criminals or tolerate them jumping the borders or have these people lurking and then head over the border to avoid being prosecuted.

zimzo said:

As I have pointed out time and again Had Enough the proportion of immigrants who commit crimes is actually lower than the proportion of American citizens who commit crimes so this is a specious argument.

Surprisingly, however, the percentage of illegal aliens who "commit crimes" is hovering right around 100%. So there's that.

First an apology for being a little late in response. My son (he'll be four in August) broke his arm and it will be operated on to fix it, and that will make me a little sparse here for the next few days.

Second, I am not Joe, and I don't post things because of him or at his behest and I don't seek his approval for what I post. He can throw me off the board if he so desires, but as long as I'm here, I'll start my own threads for my own reasons.

Third, my view of the H1b program is from knowing what is stated as the "safeguards" for hiring an H1b applicant. Those safeguards include that the company that does the hire is supposed to do a bona fide search for a qualified, interested resident. The H1b program is only for skilled labor, and generally H1b software engineers still make more than I do as a teacher in Loudoun, but they make *far* less than those that are citizens. A good software engineer prior to the flood of H1b visas could easily bring a salary of $120,000 a year. That dropped when the H1b program expanded. It got to the point that a reasonably good software engineer could, if he worked hard at it, make $65,000 to $70,000 a year. H1b holders are usually paid even less. They are also worked harder as the visa is specific to the employer that hired them.

One thing I want to tell you that you did in your post that shows a little bit of bigotry. You said: "The only reason you would bring it up in this context is to help stoke anti-foreigner sentiment." That is prejudice -- you judged *me* before you know the facts. I am a math teacher, I used to be a software engineer, I know a lot of software engineers that have lost their jobs and left the industry because of lack of work. My beef has nothing to do with foreign illegal immigrants, or trying to stoke anti-foreigner sentiment. It does have everything to do with honesty -- like I said, if the program was stated as a means of depressing skilled workers salaries by importing cheap foreign labor, I would not complain. At that you should not try to think I'm being duplicitous, but take me at my word. I've never given you any reason to doubt that, and you should live with that knowledge.

Helping a client avoid taxes is one thing, helping them skirt the stated purpose of a law is yet another. Again, the stated purpose of the law is to make it possible for companies to hire highly skilled workers for which there are no interested, qualified resident workers. If you haven't seen any of my posts, then it makes a little more sense that you wouldn't understand that I find being less than totally honest antithetical to my world view, especially for politicians.

And the issue here *is* foreign workers lowering our citizens' wages. Take away the H1b program and I'll almost guarantee salaries for software engineers, programmers, engineers and the like will rise almost over night. Supply and demand holds even within the highly skilled labor force. The job market would free up greatly (in favor of the worker).

I will be teaching AP computer science next year. I want those students (including those that are legal residents, but not citizens) to have the best opportunity possible. If I ever decide to go back to IT I would want the best wage possible. (I used to be a software engineer, manager, and then IT director.) I see friends that I know personally losing jobs to H1b visa holders. It is personal to me in many ways.

Now as to the slur. My brother-in-law is from northeast India. He is a Naga tribesmen. My sister-in-law is Jewish. My view on the world has nothing to do with what race or nationality a person claims, but is very much based on morals. What you have said is far from moral, and in fact is bigotry from the standpoint of prejudging me based on my being a conservative, and not on knowledge. You attributed motive without knowledge. You are wrong. There may be those that have problems with race or national origin, I do not.

Now as to your statement that someone did not disassociate themselves with another person's statement, did you disassociate yourself from every statement I've made here in every thread? If not, then for those that you did not, do I get to say you agree with them? If not, you are using a double standard, and last time I checked, that was very closely associated to hypocrisy.

Now again, I'll repeat myself. This thread is not about illegal aliens, it is about a program that suppresses the wages of residents by hiring foreign workers even through there is not supposed to be any effect on residents. That is *my* point. I find duplicity, lies and half-truths in politics to be about as bad as you can get. (Why else would I think Jack Ryan has acted so badly when prior to the 6/9 convention I supported him?)

Sorry to hear about your son, Brian! Poor kid! Please keep us posted on his progress.

And don't worry, of course your posts don't have to pass any type of test (and of course we do not all act in concert here). We have invited our liberal visitors to post here and never vetted anything.

Zimzo is ridiculous to accuse you of "stoking anti-foreigner sentiment," but you will learn that part of the game is to try and make you defend yourself against the accusation ... which you just did very well, by the way. You needn't always do so - and I hope Zimzo will give you more credit than he does some others here and take you at your word.

Had Enough said:

Brian, you can thank bill gates! What he has not outsourced he is trying to insource with the h1b visas. He must have rented a apartment in DC because he lives at congress now pleading for more programmers, etc.

But when you state that your beef has nothing to do with illegals you are wrong because it does not matter if someone is legal or illegal they are affecting our way of life and depressing wages or taking our jobs.

In every aspect of our economy these people (legal and illegal) all of a sudden have preference over Citizens no matter what their profession.

Your profession is not more important than anyone else. If you can not stand up for all US Citizens they will not stand up for you.

Meat processing workers wages down from $19. a hour to $9. (that is if they still have a job). Carpenters down from $27. to $10. and $12. (that is is they can get work), mexico is opening a customs station in Kansas to bypass our port workers ($80,000 a year), bush is allowing mexican truckers to travel nationwide to deliver the cheap goods from the new chinese port in mexico($60,000 a year)and on and on....

I have seen a photo of a white man in LA holding a sign "Code your html for food."

I understand what you are going through, it is the same thing millions of others in all professions are going through.

I hate to be blunt but it appears that most of the suit professions are just starting to feel the pinch, welcome to the club!

And the plant (mole) up above is always playing the race card. I told him a few weeks ago I believe that he is a gay, hispanic illegal, so what.

Kevin said:

"And the plant (mole) up above is always playing the race card. I told him a few weeks ago I believe that he is a gay, hispanic illegal, so what."

Ha ha ha! Zim, methinks your days of clandestine operations here are nearing their end. sHE is on to you. Pack your bags and cooperate with your local ICE officer for the time being. You'll be notified in your cell by a homing pigeon about further ways to disrupt the system from behind bars. Start your work by eating as much prison food as possible so that they won't be able to fit any "legal" citizens in your cell. We'll begin overcrowding and bankrupting the profit driven prisons by way of consuming as much of their food as possible. The pigeon will meet you with further instructions.

zimzo said:

Now that my secret is out I can finally confess my love for that guapo hunk of man, Had Enough. I could never have enough of him. Mas y Mas!

Had Enough said:

Zimzo, your posts are carbon copies of the propaganda spewed by la raza, mecha, aztlan and all the other new kkk (clan with a tan) political groups.

I heard their motto was "Everything For The Race (mexican), Nothing For Anyone Else." They have not learned that mexican is not a race.

I just figured you were one of their amusing plants sent here to spew some propaganda, they are doing it everywhere.

Anonymous said:

Just to let everyone know, my son was operated on today. He broke his humerus and they put a pin in it. He was playing with his brother and fell on him (landed in a funny position that put a lot of stress on his arm). The doctors were able to put in the pin in place through the skin, so they did not have to cut him to place it. The elbow was also out of joint, and they got that back at the same time. It is scary beyond belief to see a little one hurt so much. But I thank all of you that were praying for him. Now if I can just sleep -- I'd rather be hurt myself than see my kids hurt. I suppose it goes with the territory of being a Dad.

zimzo said:

Glad your son is doing OK.

Had Enough the crazier you get the more I love you.

It seems a lot of people are upset, but not enough.

The following is a link to an article from eweek that talks about the same thing.

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